Talk:Ork

The term Krork (see Old Ones) redirects here but is not mentioned in the article. Can anyone provide information on this alternate name? —Archlords 05:31, 8 October 2007 (CEST)

It is the name the Old Ones and the C'tan stargods (Deciever) use for the Orks. The Old Ones created them to save their remaining bases but it was too little too late. There is short-story "Deus est Machina" in which the Deceiver says that he is very admired that the Krork are everywhere in the galaxy. Irulan 13:35, 8 October 2007 (CEST)

This page is full of game mechanics (" A roll is first made to determine which subset of behaviour is going to apply, "), hobbyists info ("most longtime gamers have a collection of assorted metal pieces, additional weapons, and parts left over from modeling projects,) and unsourced POV references ("Orky Kultur, originally intended as a joke, has given birth to several concepts widely recognized among GW gamers"), aswell as some really horrible writing ("There are several different Oddboyz, cumulated under the term Oddboyz. Some of these Oddboyz are: "). If no-one objects I will begin changing the style and content to better match the rest of the Lexicanum. I'll wait a few days for feedback/suggestions etc, thanks Thelemur 16:34, 1 June 2011 (CEST)

Remove all game meachnics and report offenders for disciplination. --Inquisitor S., Großmeister des Ordo Lexicanum 11:59, 3 June 2011 (CEST)

Done. The whole Ork section seems in need of alot of work (as the dark Eldar section did) - I'll try and fix what i can over the weekend, though I expect a hug for my trouble... Thelemur 04:40, 4 June 2011 (CEST)

No problem.

IOU: 1 hug

signed: --DetlefK 13:21, 4 June 2011 (CEST)

Ork "belief"

Can someone please provide some actual definitive evidence for the whole "Ork belief affects their technology" thing? This is a topic i've looked into quite a bit, yet every piece of "proof" i've seen or had given to me either didn't say what was claimed, or involved misconstruing / ignoring critical information that went against it.

For example, the idea originates in the 3rd edition Ork Codex (despite claims it was in earlier lore. It doesn't appear in either Waaagh! The Orks, or Gorkamorka, at least not that I've found) from a Magos named Genetor Anzion. Someone who was outright stated in that lore to "speculate too much", was guessing outside his main area of expertise, was ignoring that two Ork vehicles aren't actually the same (he compares two "nominally" similar vehicles; not actually the same), and suggests a rational explanation before discounting that and claiming it must be the theory he's just named after himself.

Another example of what's commonly used as 'evidence' is the "Red Ones go faster" idea. What this tends to say is something along the lines of "Orks believe Red is faster. For some reason Red is faster" in a way that doesn't actually say their belief is the cause of it, yet some people take correlation as causation and claim it's proof. The original lore on this from Waaagh! The Orks actually gives rational explanations for why Red is faster, even.

The "belief" thing is definitely an in-universe theory proposed by the Mechanicus, but I have not seen any evidence that is not in-universe lore without some form of caveat included that gives the idea doubt.

The out-of-universe lore tells us that, while unreliable, needlessly complex etc, their technology works because of their in-built knowledge that lets them make technology out of 'scrap', they CAN do those things. The Mechancius basically underestimated them and went "They're orks, they're too primitive to do that" despite that not actually being the case, and then some fans decided to do the very same thing and not take them seriously by taking that theory as fact.--TheVoidDragon (talk) 21:41, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

I can't speak for the 3rd edition codex, but pg. 10 of the 4th edition codex contains one of Anzion's reports. He specifically says (emphasis mine) "Meks are similarly driven to experimentation. Much of the weaponry and wargear used by the Orks are designed and built by the Meks. As much of their knowledge is subconscious, the vast majority of Meks never truly understand what they are creating. This leads to some rather unlikely conventions. For instance, it is widely believed in Ork society that machines painted in a red colour operate faster. As disturbing as it sounds, 'facts' such as this become true. Many captured Ork weapons and items of equipment do not work unless wielded by an Ork. I theorise that many Ork inventions work because the Orks themselves think they should work - the strong telekinetic abilities of the Ork subconscious somehow ensure they function as desired."

The language used would suggest that Anzion has actually seen the "red paint job" in action. KazilDarkeye (talk) 22:03, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

There is also an interstitial in Overfiend (Anthology) that examines and comments on some examples of Ork tech, including a Stompa ("Right arm chainblade is too massive. Should rip arm off at first use.", "Cannons on left arm. Unclear how ammunition is fed to them.") and a Burna ("Design of these flamer variants is mad. Too much promethium, too large a spray, no safeguards. Baffling that they do not immolate their users."). I know the Mechanicus are probably underestimating them, but some of that seems like really basic stuff - the sort that should be obvious simply by basic mathematics. KazilDarkeye (talk) 22:09, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

That Anzion section is simply the lore I mentioned from the 3rd edition codex, albeit much shortened. I don't see anything about those Overfiend quotes that necessitates "belief", just sounds like typical ramshackle poorly designed Ork equipment with no quality control. Either way though, my initial point was that the only evidence is biased/questioable in-universe theories from the Mechanicus that can be interpreted several ways, which isn't the same as it being definitively established as a canon 'fact' as such. --TheVoidDragon (talk) 22:23, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

Got something - in the 4th edition codex again, the vehicle upgrades on pg. 93 "Orks believe that a vehicle that has been painted red can outstrip a similar vehicle that isn't. As odd as it may seem, they are quite right.". Admittedly that goes into tabletop rules but still. KazilDarkeye (talk) 22:28, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

That's all I've got for now - not really an expert when it comes to the Orks. The conclusion I draw is that there's definitely something going on with their "tek" that's not quite right (resulting in stuff like the red paint job somehow working) but nothing concrete about what or how. KazilDarkeye (talk) 22:39, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

This is the sort of thing I'm referring to, though. There isn't anything about that quote actually says "belief" has anything to do with it, it simply says that Ork vehicles that are painted red can be, for unknown some reason, faster than ones that aren't. The actual reason could be anything, like the explanation That Rogue Trader Era "Waaagh! The Orks" book gave (in an out of universe context) was that Red Vehicles can be faster because the Red Paint encourages them to drive more recklessly, and lore at that time also said that Orks asking a Mek to make their vehicle faster will typically mean it gets Red paint "...and some tinkering with the engine". Taking it as their "belief" being the reason is conjecture and not something that has actually been established as anything more than a Mechanicus theory. --TheVoidDragon (talk) 23:52, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

No, while the belief effect is often exaggerated by the fandom/meta it isn't pure fan-fiction. It's obvious Ork belief influences technology and abilities and if you read novels like The Beast Arises and the latest Ghazghkull books it becomes obvious. The current citations are satisfactory and the statements on belief are not universal by any means. Harriticus (talk) 02:25, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

Can you elaborate if it's so obvious then please? Where has it been stated in a definite way that doesn't involve conjecture? that their belief does actually affect their technology? I haven't read the entire Beast Arises series but I have read the part of Predator, Prey where a Techpriest mentions the idea after an Ork Choppa stops working when taken away from a dead ork, but he even says at the end that he doesn't actually know that's what's actually going on. I have not said it's "pure fan fiction", my point is that an in-universe theory about it from from the Mechanicus is not the same thing as it actually being told to be the case if it had been mentioned in an out-of-universe matter-of-fact codex paragraph for example. It being a theory to the Mechanicus simply means that the Mechanicus has a theory, not that they're correct. --TheVoidDragon (talk) 14:03, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

Passage from the recent Ghazghkull book for instance.

Because of all the creatures that had ever offended Gork and Mork with their presence in the galaxy, the humans were the thickest. They thought that if they believed something it must be true, just like orks did. Only it didn’t actually work for humans.

This is from Makari himself and isn't just speculation Harriticus (talk) 21:27, 4 July 2022 (UTC)