Talk:Primarch

I wonder why it is stated so difinitively that Rogal Dorn is dead here when there are rumors, also published by GW, that he is the leader of the Adeptus Custodes.

Unknown primarchs

As I did some research on this topic (the hypothesis that they were never found) and I already posted that on Warseer, I'll be back sooner or later with my sources to prove that they were found (still at work, have to wait for a mayor break ;)) --Inquisitor S. 21:23, 12 February 2007 (CET)

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"White Dwarf 166, page 12: Quote [...] the infants (=primarchs) were only dispersed by this action and not destroyed, and the twenty fell from the warp onto human worlds where they were variously adopted by human parents So this case should be settled for now.

And hey, in the same text there mention of an "Invisibility"-power of one of the primarchs.

Further on the text states that of the 20 primarchs nine survived in the Imperium, and the remainder was killed in the Heresy or fled to the EoT."

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"EDIT: another source that settles things: Codex Ultramarines, 2nd Edition, page 7 (at least in the German edition): All twenty legions took part in the Great Crusade and every legion was led by its primarch.(...)"

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--Inquisitor S. 21:38, 12 February 2007 (CET)

Hmmm... gotta get me that WD166! I had it once but sold it when I moved house :( You're right - all 20 Primarchs were recovered according to various texts. Odd how the Horus Heresy art books and novels don't mention either the missing two Primarchs or their legions. --newsdeskdan 21:24, 12 February 2007 (GMT)

Well it's only the same as it has always been ^^. Basically I am quite convinced that we will never get to know anything on this topic :D --Inquisitor S. 22:35, 12 February 2007 (CET)

Hmmm... Beware, these unholy discussions are the beginning of Heresy, brother Inquisitor. :) I still don't buy it. They didn't fell to Chaos and they didn't fight against the traitors. What happened to them: the two Primarchs and the two legions? I mean we are talking more or less about 20,000 Space Marines here. I looked at Google and this seems to be quite a "hot" topic. Games Workshop simply likes to leave such questions unanswered, it provides material for endless discussions (who will never find the true story as GW sees no reason to answer), simply helps to sell background books and novels, and keeps the interrest of older fans. A similar case is: "The story and stats of Arhra, the original and fallen Striking Scorpion, who is only reported to have joined Slaanesh". Never saw his full story anywhere except very brief mentions.

My personal conspiracy theories?

1)The two Primarchs were never found, their legions fought initially at the Great crusade but on the long term they couldn't survive whithout them, slowly dying one by one, until noone was left and they were simply forgotten - they simply died, no need to keep records.

2)They were indeed found and lead their legions during the Great Crusade, but so far away that with the events of the Horus Heresy they were simply unable to return (I suppose that the "light" of the Holy Beacon was quite reduced at the end of the civil war). The Primarchs could probably have returned but they would have to abandon their legions and they would have never betray their own band of brothers. In my opinon this or something similar is the most probable answer. Too away to return, contact impossible or not wanted any more.

3)They simply deserted with their legions during/at the end of the war, and erased themselves from all Imperial records and fled far, far away (again beyond the reach of the beacon). They might have deduced/predicted how religious/fanatical the Imperium was going to become. Perhaps their homeworld/backgound or their understanding of the Emperor's vision (HE didn't want to be worshiped as a god, at the least initially) left them no other choice. We will never know, at least until GW decides to gain some bucks selling the story.

If you want we can improve the text into a: "Nothing is known about the two unknown Primarchs and their respective legions." + "Primarch" Rubineck. Probably it is better this way. Irulan 23:28, 12 February 2007 (CET)

I'm into 40K now for so many, many years, that the everpresent Primarch-threads are quite boring for me most of the time. Therefore I stick to facts (=printed, official sources), so all that we know is what I quoted above until officially contradicted or new sources turn up :) --Inquisitor S. 00:28, 13 February 2007 (CET)

Ok, I have a question regarding their creation. Where they created in Luna (Moon), or in subterranean laboratories under the Urals or under the Himalayas? I sincerly don't remember. Perhaps they were created on the Moon but quickly transfered to Earth, or something similar. Please give your source with your answer. Irulan 03:19, 22 February 2007 (CET)

The most recent quote I can find is that they were on Earth (Codex Space Marines 4), the older stuff i have says the same thing. As for where on earth, no idea.--Jonru 09:35, 22 February 2007 (CET)

Spontaneously I don't recall this being mentioned. That stuff about the Urals is completely unknown to me. In the Himalayas I think is the Astronomican. In the Warhammer 40.000 Compendium Dr. Devam Outek is being mentioned as possibly working on the Primarch project on Terra. I'm at work right now and can't check that but if you remind me later I can check that. --Inquisitor S. 14:17, 22 February 2007 (CET)

Tyrant231:

Ah but you are worng Inquisitor the two missing Primarch's did some thing to enrage the Emperor witch caused him to Expunge both Primarch's that is why they are not mentiond. If my memory serves me right in the Horus Heresy novels one of them talks of Magnus the red being told by the Emperor that if he continues his antics with the sorcery he will be deleted from Imperial records. You can also find this in the Horus Heresy Colected Visions book.

Not necessarily. Indeed on page 94 (ish) of Collected Visions it does say that Magnus would be removed from records, but it doesn't mean that the other two legions did the same thing, they could have been removed for very different reasons (being destroyed for example...).--Jonru 10:10, 27 July 2007 (CEST)

Nine loyal primarchs survived? We only know of 7.

I just noticed that the issue is even more unclear than I believed. If we believe the statement of WD 166 that 9 loyal primarchs survived the Horus Heresy then the 'two unknown ones' were loyalists.

To make it real simple, let's count up the loyal survivors: Lion El'Jonson, Leman Russ, Jagathai Khan, Rogal Dorn, Roboute Guilliame, Vulkan, and Corax. Only Seven, and Sanguinus and Ferrus Manus are allready dead so they don't count.

Unless someone can put some light in this issue, I will include this info in the article shortly. Irulan 20:47, 13 April 2007 (CEST)

If we're going to nitpick here - we could argue exactly the opposite. After all, Alpharius and his brother *WERE* loyal, and since the log of one of them's death is disputed in its veracity, it could be claimed nine loyal primarchs DID survive. At least eight sertainly did. Sunyavadin 03:07, 21 September 2010 (BST)

Alpharis- Dead?

XX Alpharius unknown Alpha Legion traitor dead, killed by Roboute Guilliman - Weather he was killed or not is disputed amongst Alpha legion layers as:

"The account of Guilliman's attack on the Alpha Legion was taken from what appeared to be the personal log of an Ultramarine involved in the strike, though its validity has been questioned by both Inquisitors and the Ultramarines themselves, and it remains unclear as to whether Alpharius remains at large."

The popular belief is that it was a clone of Alpharius as a Primarch of his stature is unlikely to be killed by a single sword strike after dodging several bolter shells.

Popular belief is irrelevant (= fan-theory). The only known source tells us that he was slain by Guilliman. I grant you that the source is somewhat suspect (suppossedly the Inquisitor who wrote it was manipulated by the Alpha legion). But the major fact persists: Alpharius has not appeared in over 10'000 years. There have been 13 Black Crusades and Alpharius hasn't appeared in any of them. All the other fallen Primarchs (minus Nighthaunter) have appeared somewhere (even if inside of the Eye of Terror). So if we have only one source and a a fan-theory what is going to win? The source, of course. You will have to wait for more novels of the Horus Heresy series, I suspect that the death (or not) of Apharius will appear in one of the last books. Irulan 16:27, 19 August 2007 (CEST)

Horus' vision of the scattering

Well the quote in the article is correct. And the visions are induced by chaos and show how the primarchs were scattered. I also do not remember exactly if Erebus said something about this (can't look it up as I haven't got the novels here). The thing I changed before Irulan's edit was to make that sentence a bit less ambiguous as the way it was written it could mean that the scattering was orchestrated by chaos (which I doubt as official canon still leaves this unexplained) or the visions were orchestrated by chaos (which is correct in the novel False Gods). Werther the vision is a lie or not remains to be seen (after Irulan has reread the novel :P) and for me the question remains if this passage is relevant for the article. If it's a lie as Irulan thinks it is... then it has no added value besides the mention that Horus had an chaos induced vision about it and one of the lost primarchs (XI legion)... if it's not... I think it can remain in the article but should perhaps, IMHO, be rewritten a little to make it more clear the vision mentions one of the lost primarchs and make it fit better in the article than it does in it's current form.

Any thoughts on that? -- JoeneB, 2 September 2007, 14:46 (CEST)

1.) I seem to remember that there were some older official sources stating explicitly it was the Chaos Gods who "abducted" the incubator capsules. 2.) I don't think Irulan or anybody else can come up with an answer if the vision was real or not, given the nature of the description itself. --Inquisitor S. 18:23, 2 September 2007 (CEST)

Oh yeah... but Irulan said in his edit description he thought Erebus said something about the visions in False Gods that indicated it were false visions or something...hence the reread, that was what I was referring to. Regarding the Chaos Gods taking the primarchs... ok I'm not aware of those sources so I believe you if you say so :) Then all that remains is a small rewrite I think.-- JoeneB, 2 September 2007, 18:54 (CEST)

Well personally I think that vision was false to drive a wedge between Horus and the Emperor, but as I said, I think this is one of GW's usual ambiguous stements which everybody can interprete in their own way. --Inquisitor S. 19:07, 2 September 2007 (CEST)

hmm that's a very plausible explanation of the vision. GW is good at that stuff, keeps the fans going ;) -- JoeneB, 2 September 2007, 19:29 (CEST)

Ok I finally re-read the relevant chapters (had lended the book to a friend). In truth it's impossible to be 100% sure. In page 323 Magnus says: "You must not believe whatever he has told you. It is lies, all of it. Lies that disguise his sinister purpose". I think that the whole vision (including the part of the XI tank) was only that: a vision (nothing more). I grant that the thought of Horus of "untapped glories that lay within, knowing they would never come to pass" are mystifying. But the part of his punch hiting the tank and cracking and killing half a dozen Custodes, facing Constantine Valdor and the Emperor face to face? If that part were really true the Emperor and Valdo would have recognized him, don't you all agree? In personal opinon: It is a lie, a lie, nothing but a lie (i.e. a false vision of the past). The vision of the future that Horus experiences however are a "possible future" according to Magnus. I think that the paragraph should be left as it is. Irulan 18:32, 17 September 2007 (CEST)

Credit

The current revision is not by me as stated in the history, i merely removed redmachine d's spam. Don't want to take credit for work I didn't do. thanks, that guy

You shouldn't care about "credit". --Inquisitor S., Großmeister des Ordo Lexicanum 12:20, 2 July 2008 (CEST)

Lion El'Jonson

It says that the Emperor knows of Lion El'Jonson sleeping within the rock, is this legit? Where's the citation?--Vindicta 08:35, 10 January 2009 (CET)

Codex: Angels of Death (2nd Edition), p14, The Final Secret, last few words. I'll add cites.--Jonru 13:20, 10 January 2009 (CET)

Thanks, I'll add to this to Lion El'Jonson's article; it seems relevant enough (and important too).--Vindicta 13:25, 10 January 2009 (CET)