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Talk:28th Expedition Fleet

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Notable Battles of the 28th Expedition Fleet

All the battles listed are from Fulgrim's 28th Expedition Fleet but it doesn't say so on the page.

Add it.

-- Secondat of Orange 05:00, 14 August 2011 (CEST)

I'm quite aware of the policy here at lexicantum.

> Do I need to add a source to remove incorrect information?
> None, that is to say nothing, on this page lives up lexicantum citations policy. The two sources given on this page nominal and are book titles. If you are to revert my edits, then flag this page in it entirety for deletion. Given the standing policy you might as well delete this page. What's more in that there is no template on this page to point out that the information that exists on it was created at a time were.
> I don't really think I need sources when I am clarifying existing information on the page -- id est: Notable Battles of the 28th Expedition Fleet >->-> Notable Battles of the 28th Expedition Fleet (Fulgrim).

-- Secondat of Orange 00:01, 4 August 2011 (CEST)
To remove information as incorrect there must be a source proving that it is incorrect. --Inquisitor S., Großmeister des Ordo Lexicanum 09:45, 4 August 2011 (CEST)
Ever heard of a burden of proof? The whole page was created in ignorance of Lexicantum policy the original author has no accurate source to his claims and therefore leaves the work open to scrutiny. Either way, fine, I'll adhere to such arbiter given that the you have described the policy in which one requires evidence for negative proofs here on a policy page.
Also address the second and third points.
-- Secondat of Orange 20:32, 4 August 2011 (CEST)

L

Policy is simple: if the page was created after putting in place the strict sourcing guidelines it will be immediately deleted. Was it created before: it has to be repaired - nevertheless in all cases any and all changes have to be justified with a source. --Inquisitor S., Großmeister des Ordo Lexicanum 20:53, 4 August 2011 (CEST)
Hmmmn. That's a little silly, how does one provide a source for something that never happened? That's an argument from ignorance by fine, If the policy exist.
Fulgrim - pg 232, it is a possible source as its when Fulgrim gives the order for the virus bombs to be used. It's not a direct contradiction but I don't really think the Imperium would have decolonised the dead worlds before the 28th expedition became heretical.

-- Secondat of Orange 21:45, 4 August 2011 (CEST)

Addition "*Battle on Tarsus against Craftworld Ulthwe lead by Eldrad." --> no source given, no footnote used. Removal of information without explanation why, addition of "Fulgrim" without explanation. --Inquisitor S., Großmeister des Ordo Lexicanum 22:22, 4 August 2011 (CEST)


Twenty-Eight Four

Tarsus was never brought to compliance. The planet, and all those in the Perdus Region of space, are now dead worlds.

Bring my edits back or I will do so myself.

-- Secondat of Orange 23:17, 3 August 2011 (CEST)

Don't follow the guidelines and you will suffer the consequences. And don't threaten the Sysop :P --Inquisitor S., Großmeister des Ordo Lexicanum 23:40, 3 August 2011 (CEST)

Chronology

In the opening paragraph it is stated "Chronologically, the first fleet was under the command of Magnus the Red, Primarch of the Thousand Sons Legion" however, how can this be true if 28-4 (Laeren) was dealt with by the Emperor's Children yet 28-16(Aghoru) was dealt with by the Thousand Sons? Where is the sourcing for this?

Also, in the Thousand Sons, in chapter 5 when Magnus goes on his flight through the "great ocean" he flies past his fleet which states "The ships of the Thousand Sons hung motionless in the void above him. The Photep, the Scion of Prospero and the Ankhtowe. Together with Mechanicum forge vessels, Administratum craft and a host of bulk cruisers bearing army soldiers of the Prospero Spireguard, they made up this portion of the 28th Expedition"

"This portion of the expedition" seems to suggest that the 28th was split for some reason, yet both retained the designation. Your thoughts? --Sanguinarius 23:09, 25 February 2012 (CET)

Hmm, good question - I just skimmed the start of "Fulgrim" and it does confirm that the Emperors Children were part of the 28th Exp Fleet in their battles against the Laer. I'd have to read through both novels to get the full context of both versions though. We may need to do a bit of research to confirm the facts.The Lemur 00:03, 26 February 2012 (CET)
I understand the reasoning here, but there's no direct statement in either source that the Fleet was transferred or split, that I'm aware of. The chronology in the texts is that the 28th Fleet is a Thousand Son fleet, with appropriate numbering of world actions. Then Nikea happens and the Thousand Sons withdraw from the Crusade. The Emperor's Children appear to take over command of the 28th after Nikea and begin numbering their world actions from 1. I believe this to be the correct chronology (I'm sad enough to have a ridiculously massive and just ridiculous spreadsheet with the HH series timeline inputted on it) but I may be misinterpreting. Both texts were written by the same author, so it seems reasonable to assume this was his intention, although why.... Taking over a pre-existing Fleet deffo happens - the Dark Angels take over a White Scar one in Descent of Angels - but why the numbering is zeroed...If that's common practice it has interesting (and needlessly confusing) implications for how many worlds the Imperium catalogued in the Crusade...--Mob 05:14, 7 March 2012 (CET)
Im glad you have your spreadsheet - I really couldn't face re-reading all the fluff! Do you think the article needs re-written to clear things up, or is it ok as it is? The Lemur 05:19, 7 March 2012 (CET)
Well, I'm not saying my interpretation is correct, as in this case it depends on reading the books and working out the chronology from various mentions of time passing and 'who needs to be where and when for such and such to make sense'; there's no actual direct statement explaining it AFAIK. And having just opened it up and looked at it I think the EC take over the 28th after Ullanor, not Nikea. It may be worth putting in a Notes section stating the reasons for the belief expressed in the article, seeing as we've had to discuss it.
I think it goes
Ark Reach Cluster (28th is 1KSons)
Ullanor Triumph
Nikea
Cleansing of Laeran (28th is EC)
The 1KSons spend 8 months regrouping at Hexam Minora after the Ullanor Crusade then go to Nikea, then home. I think the tell of when they deffo must've transferred the fleet over would be if Fulgrim has the laer sword at Nikea or not, which I haven't checked yet. Coz if he has it, he's also got the 28th. I think it would be after Ullanor though - the Sons go for resupply and that would be a sensible time for the EC to take their leave of the Luna Wolves. Ugh, brain hurts.--Mob 05:48, 7 March 2012 (CET)
You should consult "DetlefK" about this, he is collecting a chronology of the HH events on his German user page, maybe he has some additional insights. --Inquisitor S., Großmeister des Ordo Lexicanum 09:53, 7 March 2012 (CET)
What an honor to be deemed an expert. ;-) First: AFAIK the Dark Angels did not take over the White Scars Expedition Fleet, they just took over a garrison duty for them, because the compliance-negotiations took so damn long.
Second: I don't remember, if they are still described as 28th Expedition fleet post-Laeran, but the Emperor's Children continued to employ Imperial Army auxiliaries. The Archite Palatines joined the Emperor's Children in their fall to Chaos/Slaanesh: Their officers were present during the famous concert on board of the Pride of the Emperor (some died during the fighting/orgy) and the Archite Palatines later deployed artillery to support the traitors on Isstvan V.
Third: The Thousand Sons did not take part in the Ullanor-campaign. At that time they were studying the mysterious psychic mountain on Aghoru (no spoiler here) and later joined the Space Wolves/Word Bearers campaign in the Ark Reach cluster. The Ullanor campaign was waged by the Lunar Wolves, the Ultramarines and AFAIR the White Scars.
Fourth: What's the number designated to Laeran by Fulgrim's 28th? --DetlefK 11:16, 7 March 2012 (CET)
Twenty-Eight Three Fulgrim (Novel) pg 30 Odinsgrudge 13:22, 7 March 2012 (CET)
Ullanor -- Agreed, but they were present for the Triumph when the Emperor appointed Horus Warmaster. --Sanguinarius 15:07, 7 March 2012 (CET)
Hi all. I created this page when I was brand new to Lexicanum, I apologize for the slap-dash lack of proper referencing. In hindsight I wish I had done it properly. All I can say is that everything is sourced from the books, though I realize just my word on that is hardly sufficient, so I'll try to add in page numbers for them when I have a chance. With regard to chronology, Nikea (I believe the last time the 28th is mentioned in ATS) was chronologically before the events of Fulgrim, hence my wording. I agree it's muddled.Phunting 03:22, 10 March 2012 (CET)

Overkill

All the cite requests on this page are the most obnoxious thing I've seen on this site in 8 years. Including the time that guy spammed bigoted comments everywhere.--Mob (talk) 12:46, 20 February 2016 (MST)