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Talk:Chaos Space Marine Army List

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the opening statement of this article is wrong, isn't it? there are only nine legions, not thousands or millions. there may well be a lot of chaos space marines, but there are definitely only a few legions. any chapters that converted to chaos after the Heresy form Renegade Chapters, not Traitor Legions, there is a distinct difference between these two types of organisation and i don't feel that this site takes that difference into account propperly.

You've got a point there... Changed it a bit. -- JoeneB, 12 September 2006, 17:24 (CEST)
Looking at this again, after a long time, the original poster/starter of this discussion is right IMHO. There were 20 pre-Heresy Legions. Assuming it is correct that a legion consists of 10,000 marines (I don't know this for sure but I guess someone does) there could only have been 200,000 marines at the start of the Heresy. Nine (9)(on one Legion there is no more record according to the Primarchs article) of them are confirmed turning traitor, so at a maximum (when non would have died during the civil war, which is highly unlikely ;)) there would be 90,000 Chaos Space Marines. Now following the Heresy the loyalist were split up in chapters of a 1000 marines and new chapters created during the years... so it would stand to reason that the number of Loyalist Marines outnumbers the Chaos Marines... even with some of the Loyalist chapters turning renegade or even to chaos, and not vise versa like this article states. Unless of course the Chaos Legions also started making their own marines. As there is no info on this (as far as I know) I think the introduction-section of this article should be rewritten. I'm happy to do it, just not now (my bed is calling me :P) and I would like the opinion of some other (more versed in the background of WH40K) people. -- JoeneB, 16 November 2006, 23:39 (CET)

After the drop site massacre the traitor forces would have had more marines than the loyalists, but by the end of the heresy they would have been roughly equal. After 10k years however, with chaos not creating new marines, and with few traitor chapters going over to chaos, loyal space marines must be starting to considerably outnumber them. Also the latest horus heresy stuff states that 10,000 marines was the standard template for a legion and primarches would have been given legions of this strength, but there was no size limit imposed and there are mentions of "tens of thousands" of marines in a legion, so chaos marines could theoretically number in the low hundereds iof thousands --Sanguinius 11:55, 18 November 2006 (CET)

Yo all. Who says Chaos isn't making new Marines? In fact, Fabius Bile is out there doing just that for protection against the Dark Angels or someone. Ok, so he won't be producing legions of men but still, the after 10000 years and 13 massive crusades, if they weren't making new marines don't you think they would have run out of warriors by now? Renegade Chapters would also help bolster the ranks although I guess they would just hang around wherever they ran to (aka Maelstrom/Storm of the Emperor's Wrath) but 300 or so Space Marines is still a very powerful force. Probably by the end of the Battle for Terra the Chaos legions which took part there were probably somewhat under strength, if you think of the savagry of the fighting thousands of them must have died. Loyal marines already outnumber them. If you look at the list of chapters alone and total up the number of marines there, I think they might outnumber them, and that list is by no means complete, and never will be. As the original writer of that bit, I still think it is right. There must be thousands or millions in the Eye or wherever just to maintain the level of raiding/attack/pillaging that they are undertaking.--Jonru 12:50, 18 November 2006 (CET)

Oh yeah.. Fabius Bile, I remember reading some stuff about him. And yes the point you made about chaos marines being extinct by now if they didn't create new recruits occurred to me too this morning (yes, it is a strange thing to wake up with :P)... well as no one can know for sure how many Marines there are... of either side, let's just call it a plot-hole from GW ;) Besides, I just read it again without being as tired as last time and well, the text compares a Chaos LEGION with a Marine CHAPTER... so when it states that chaos out numbers a marine chapter by thousands of marines... it is true. I think the article can stay as it is and my last line of reasoning can be forgotten ;) -- JoeneB, 18 November 2006, 16:39 (CET)

First of all there are barely a million regular marines. There are only a few tens of thousands of marines left. they make new marines but they rely on captrued geneseed or other more complicated methods that usually end up getting destroyed (ie. daemonculaba). After the Heresy traitors slightly ountnumbered the loyalists because the salamanders were almost completely destroyed but by now the loyalists outnumber the traitors by about 10 to one at least. It's just that the loyalist marines are all spread out dealing with everything from orks and tyranids to tau and eldar while the chaos marines are mainly concentrated in the eye of terror and the maelstrom so they can gaina greater economy of force. And the black crusades aren't comprised solely of Chaos marines, chaos marines are just the leaders and shock troops. Human worshipers of chaos, mutants and daemons make up 99% of the chaos armies. that's why they're able to continue to fight after all these years, they have a large supply of mutants and daemons at their disposal. Most fights between the imperium and chaos are between the imperial guard and mutants or heretics devoted to chaos. If you look at the fluff most of the time when space marines fight against chaos it's against regular human followers of chaos. Except in massive campaigns like the black crusades most of the time when chaos marines fight it's a company sized group of marines supporting a larger army of tens or hundreds of thousands of humans and daemons devoted to chaos. Chaos marines are the backbone of the armies of chaos they're just the greatest champions of chaos. They provide the same role as normal space marines, small groups of shock troops that can hit with a lot of force in a small area and spearhead assaults. By my estimates there are only about 100,000 chaos marines at most. With all the fighting they do against each other and the Imperium and the difficulty of making new marines that is the most likely number I can imagine.--

Redirects

Jonru, did you have to make everything Chaos-related redirect to this page? Replacing a page someone else wrote with a redirect is just bad manners. See: Berzerker, Noise Marine, Plague Marine, Daemon Prince, Greater Daemon, etc. --Strangething 08:49, 30 July 2007 (CEST)

None of the information was lost and when it grows to a decent size then perhaps it can back out again.--Jonru 22:55, 30 July 2007 (CEST)

Citation Needed

I am replacing the multiple {{cite}} tags with an {{add'l cite}} tag. The following areas were flaged as needing additional citation:

A Daemon Prince is one of the most powerful Chaos units. They are usually mortals who have promised themselves to Chaos and committed great and terrible deeds in the name of their god - although as in the case of M'Kachan, Daemon Prince of Tzeentch, some especially favoured Greater Daemons have been known to be elevated to Princehood. Daemon Princehood is a reward as the mortal has the power of chaos infused into them. A Daemon Prince can wield supernatural powers associated with their patron god. After the Horus Heresy, the primarchs of those Space Marine Legions that turned traitor fled to the Eye of Terror or other warp regions. They were each promoted to Daemon Prince status for their belief in the power of Chaos and their hatred for the Imperium.
Bloodthirsters are the physical embodiments of the Chaos god Khorne. They typically carry a monstrous Axe of Khorne and a terrifying Whip of Khorne into battle. They are enormous combat monsters, easily able to tear troops, such as Space Marines, to shreds. Their only desire is to end the lives of everything around them as a sacrifice to the Blood God, Khorne.
Forge World have released a model to represent the Keeper of Secrets as well as Games Workshop.
Lords of Change are the Greater Daemons in the service of Tzeentch. They have mastered the powers of the Warp and use them to foresee their enemies' actions, making them hard to surprise. Carrying a Staff of Change, it resembles a humanoid with bird-like features, feathered limbs, and has wildly multi-coloured skin to reflect its adaptivity.
Nurglings are small (Roughly a foot high at best) disease ridden daemons who follow Chaos Space Marines into battle, spreading disease and causing fear. They vaguely resemble zombie Ork Snotlings, walking slime balls or buboes filled with dirt and pus and come in large swarms. As their name suggests, they are creatures of the Chaos God Nurgle. It is said, that they are the beloved children of Father Nurgle, eating his dirt, playing around his rotting carcass and toying with his bowels.
* Defiler close combat weapons

The Battle Cannon can be fitted with indirect line of fire (similar to that of the Basilisk) and because it is a walker it can move and fire.

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