From Lexicanum

Sources

There really needs to be sources in these. This is why:

"Beginning of the Horus Heresy. Leman Russ and his Space Wolves are ordered by the Emperor to capture Magnus the Red, leader of the Thousand Sons. Warmaster Horus tricks Russ into destroying Prospero (Magnus' homebase). "

That is impossible, because Horus was in a far off planet before the Istavaan incident, which Magnus was warning the Emperor about. Horus couldn't have convinced anyone of anything, because they were happening at the moment of the masacre. Thats how the Rulebooks state the timing. SanchiTachi 03:19, 12 June 2007 (CEST)

I've never heard anything about Horus tricking Russ into destroying Prospero, he didn't need tricking, the Emperor had sent him to do it. I agree that this attack is at around the start of the Heresy but i think the second part is rubbish, probably got put in incorrectly somehow or was just a wrong interpretation.--Jonru 11:06, 12 June 2007 (CEST)

latest version of the story, in the HH novels, has Magnus attempting to warn the Emperor of the events on Davin, not Istvaan. Horus hasn't even reached Istvaan yet in the new version. Russ is duly sent out to bring Magnus and his Sons to heel. Horus intercepts Russ and tells him his orders have been changed from capture to kill. Russ then goes off and obliterates Prospero. The revelation of Horus' changing of the orders is right at the end of False Gods, p.405 --Mob 11:41, 12 June 2007 (CEST)

Correct. I currently haven't the novels (lended them to a friend) but when he reads and returns them I will provide proper source and page-number. Also some other points were changed: the Eisenstein is in this latest/official version is a mere frigate, and not a cruiser. Fulgrim is part of the conspiracy/Horus Heresy right from the start; while the older versiion told that he was seduced after the Isstvan III virus-bombardment. The seventy loyalist which escaped are now 69 of the Death Guard and one is a Luna Wolf. the older version spoke of loyalist from all the four legions (See my talkpage for a text from the older version). To cut is short: the new novels are 'rebooting' many details. Irulan 11:54, 12 June 2007 (CEST)

Hehe I must have missed that bit *thinks about re-reading books*. So i believe this is case close? (I'm not sure if tricked is the right word, he was still warmaster and so commanded may be better?)--Jonru 11:59, 12 June 2007 (CEST)

Tricked is the correct word. Horus had already turned, and he truly lies to/decieves Russ. This 'case' and discussion strengthens my opinon: we need to conduct an operation Cleansweep; the deletion of everything in the Timeline which doesn't provide a clear source with page-number. It is my honest opinion and I won't do it if there is oposition, but consider this: anything without a proper source cannot be checked and improved at all forcing a honest improver to search for the (not-provided) source which might not even exist at all in the first place. Irulan 12:13, 12 June 2007 (CEST)

Important - Novels aren't "official" canon according to Games Workshop. Many of the authors write things without seeking editorial approval, so novels get away with all sorts of things. Look at Daemonifuge. Its a cool story, but a lot of things wouldn't happen. Nothing in the novels is "official" unless you can find a source in the rule books. Xenology, for example, is an "art book" but contradicts so much and gets so much wrong. (More examples - Grey Knights can't pass on their weapons, yet a novel has one do it.) I think there should be a separation of timeline between the rulebook/codex/website information and the novel information, as people might confuse the two. SanchiTachi 16:44, 12 June 2007 (CEST)

That is an interesting point, esp as the Black Library seem to stress that their output is just as 'official canon' as anything else GW produces. I copied their FAQ over to Lexicanum:Open Discussion for commentary.--Mob 10:16, 13 June 2007 (CEST)

There is no need for a separation; there is a need for sources. If a source is provided the case is evident. In my opinion some novels are kind of official (believable) while others are plain stupid (noone is going to believe in the novel Storm of Iron for example). Irulan 10:32, 13 June 2007 (CEST)

Without a separation, people won't be able to see what comes from the game, and what comes from outside of the game. The distinction is quite important, as the game information is approved by the whole Games Workshop development staff and has the story go exactly as they want it. They also drop or make claims that many of the works are wrong, or do as much by rewriting parts of the Codexes to make it clear certain things aren't true. The easiest way to separate is to put the information from the novel (if only from a novel) in its own box filled-in at the appropriate time (i.e. official 700M31 goes first, then unofficial 700M31 goes next, and mark it appropriately as "old" or "Black Library" to make it clear that the information may or may not be correct). SanchiTachi 17:16, 13 June 2007 (CEST)

If the source is provided then there is no need for that. Irulan 17:22, 13 June 2007 (CEST)

I'm saying if there are multiple accounts of the same incident so they don't get confused. SanchiTachi 21:05, 13 June 2007 (CEST)

In such a case the older version can be mentioned below like in the article Istvaan V. Irulan 21:35, 13 June 2007 (CEST)

I agree. It would be better to list a Problems with Canon section. I have created a tag to be used at Template:CanonConflict.^{(Canon Conflict)}