Talk:Void Dragon

Void Dragon/ Horus Heresy story

Quote from Warseer:

In the book series, The Horus Heresy, a great deal about an entity almost certainly the Void Dragon is revealed, called "The Dragon of Mars". The Emperor himself defeated a creature of godlike power who existed on Terra itself centuries ago (what this implies about the Emperor's natural lifespan is uncertain, but Space Marines, his genetic children, do not age normally either) sometime during the 12th century (the text states during the reign of the Emperor Diocletian however, which suggests a date around the 3rd/4th century)3. He travelled to Mars and imprisoned the entity within the Noctis Labyrinth, purposefully not destroying it.The creature is described as having "drunk the heart of stars" and "worshipped as a god", which heavily implies it to be a C'tan. It had no name of its own, but the Emperor dubbed it "The Dragon of Mars", and bound it there. Once the Warp storms began and the Dark Age of Technology ended, the Dragon of Mars sought to claim the red planet by sending out dreams from its imprisonment, teaching the humans there how to build incredibly advanced machines, and in turn, worship those machines. Thus, the Dragon directly created the Mechanicum. This was in fact the Emperor's plan all along: to create a technologically advanced society that would be able to provide the industrial machinery for his Great Crusade. See the bolded text for inaccuracies. It is directly stated that the account of the battle is possibly a memory that Dragon has - or is an allegorical story representing its imprisonment.

Yet the Lexicanum clearly implies that the Emperor fought the Dragon on Terra - and dragged it through space, super-man style, to imprison it on Mars. Claiming it's just fact; here's how it happened. All without even making mention of the novel saying otherwise.

This is all too common a problem with your site. There's a reason most people discredit Lexicanum in Warseer arguments. -- Israfael

Removed all information that was not properly sourced. --Inquisitor S., Großmeister des Ordo Lexicanum 20:51, 26 November 2011 (CET)

I've checked the codex and the void dragon is not mentioned, but in the c'tan section there's a place that describbes the tomb of the sleeping god in mars.--Ashendant 22:39, 26 November 2011 (CET)

If there is a source, you know what to do. Staying away from speculation of course ;) --Inquisitor S., Großmeister des Ordo Lexicanum 23:53, 26 November 2011 (CET)

The first doesn't mention the dragon at all and refers to the sleeping god hidden in mars, there is a another reference to the dragon but it doesn't mention much besides allegorical crazyness.--Ashendant 23:58, 26 November 2011 (CET)

Then put it like that. --Inquisitor S., Großmeister des Ordo Lexicanum 01:21, 27 November 2011 (CET)

Really hard since the first is not related to the dragon at all in the text(unless you have another saying that the thing in the labyrinth is the Void Dragon) and the second is barely understandable allegory--Ashendant 01:27, 27 November 2011 (CET)

I'll quote it: Necron codex 3rd edition pg 63

"I have seen the infernal machineries of the Dragon powered by the tired limbs of those which they are designed to consume, the exhausted husks that can work no more transmuted into brief flares of light. Hundreds of serried, fleshy forms, riddled with sockets and plugs, bleed their essence into the pulsing green heart of the Machine." - Farseer Maechu of Ulthwé

If you find anything to extract from here tell me. This is a exact transcription.--Ashendant 01:33, 27 November 2011 (CET)

Well someone answered my question in the warseer, but i don't have most of these sources if anybody has please check them and add

"Right, Void Dragon.

At the risk of making it look like I'm going off on a massive ego-trip, I'm mostly going to quote/reference myself here since it's easier to Advanced Search my own posting history. Plus I've copied out rather a lot of Dragon-related background in past posts, along with citations etc.).

On the name 'Void Dragon': http://www.warseer.com/forums/showpo...9&postcount=18

On the appearance of the Dragon: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showpo...5&postcount=55

On the Dragon's relation to the plyons: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showpo...6&postcount=18

The Cult of the Dragon and Abaddon's vision: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showth...ght=mechanicum

On Mechanicum: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=163

and why it can't be considered accurate: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=166 and what Lexicanum used to say about it: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showpo...7&postcount=23, http://www.warseer.com/forums/showpo...9&postcount=28

On the Dragon giving humans technology: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showpo...1&postcount=16

On the Martian raid: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showpo...4&postcount=24

The most common errors - and thus those to be avoided at all costs - when dealing with the dragon tend to include [stating as fact]:

- The Dragon has a particular affinity with technology / The Dragon can control [all] technology

- Mechanicum is an accurate recounting of the Emperor's fight with the Dragon

- Everything vaguely dragony is the Void Dragon

- The Dragon was put into stasis by the Talismans of Vaul

- Retcons! Retcons everywhere!

- The Dragon made/influenced the Men of Iron

- The Dragon's tomb was originally on Earth"

--Ashendant 16:18, 27 November 2011 (CET)

Ok i've checked all the links and these are the sources given

• UK White Dwarf 273, pg.29|Dawn of War: Dark Crusade (Thur'Abis Catacombs - Beacon of the Void Dragon) - Name
• Battlefleet Gothic Magazine #13, pg.23 - Dragon plan with the Pylons of Cadia
• Codex: Necrons, pg.26 - The sleeping god of mars(not stated to be the dragon directly) eats the lifeforce and the daemons eat the souls that are left
• Mechanicum, pg.360 - Looks based on a version of the Dragon's memories
• Mechanicum, pg.252 - Cult of the Dragon
• Mechanicum, pg.363 - Dragon influence on mechanicus technology
• Mechanicum, pg.362 - The guardian can hear him
• Mechanicum, beginning on page 358 - Memory of the Dragon fight with the Emperor
• Mechanicum, pg.362, 211-215 -The memory is mostly allegorical and not a reliable source

Most of it come from the mechanicus, i only have the codex so if anybody has the other sources plz edit it.--Ashendant 16:36, 27 November 2011 (CET)

It will take a while to check this, it's quite a long list. But we are not in a particular hurry. --Inquisitor S., Großmeister des Ordo Lexicanum 18:03, 27 November 2011 (CET)

Would that be US or UK White Dwarf? --Inquisitor S., Großmeister des Ordo Lexicanum 10:56, 28 November 2011 (CET)

Mechanicum, Part 1, Chapter 8: psyker Jonas Milus has a vision: "I have seen the truth and I am free. I know it all, the Emperor slaying the Dragon of Mars... the grand lie of the red planet and the truth that will shake the galaxy, all forgotten by man in the darkness of the labyrinth of night."

Mechanicum, Part 3, Chapter 2: the Guardian asks Dalia whether those others like the dragon have already devoured all the stars.

DOW Dark Crusade: unique building "Icon of the Dragon" that manipulates vehicles. --DetlefK 12:29, 28 November 2011 (CET)

BFG Mag #13 p. 23:


--Inquisitor S., Großmeister des Ordo Lexicanum 13:33, 28 November 2011 (CET)

EDIT: I found that Specialist Games themselves had published an electronic version of the corresponding BFG article. I can send it to you by e-mail. It does not exist anymore on the GW page but I have a copy in the archives. Just write on my user talk page, thanks. --Inquisitor S., Großmeister des Ordo Lexicanum 13:39, 28 November 2011 (CET)

Codex Necrons 3rd Edition p. 26: I stress that this is again just a vision shown by a daemon, nothing reliable - NO FACT for sure:



--Inquisitor S., Großmeister des Ordo Lexicanum 13:45, 28 November 2011 (CET)

Can i update this article with information on these files without having the book themselves?--Ashendant 16:10, 28 November 2011 (CET)

Yes, as we (Detlef K. and me) checked them for authenticity. It's not that somebody posted them somewhere. --Inquisitor S., Großmeister des Ordo Lexicanum 16:16, 28 November 2011 (CET)

But don't use any of the sources from the Warseer links, before they have been cleared as ok. --Inquisitor S., Großmeister des Ordo Lexicanum 16:18, 28 November 2011 (CET)

Just a note: the BFG magazine is from Fanatic and so may contain unofficial fluff that must be marked as such.--Lexstealer, Magus 21:17, 28 November 2011 (CET)

Has GW said it's non-canon?--Ashendant 22:06, 28 November 2011 (CET)

Also the white dwarf article is UK version.--Ashendant 22:08, 28 November 2011 (CET)

Fanatic magazines were always in the grey zone. But that is why we have tags. --Inquisitor S., Großmeister des Ordo Lexicanum 23:27, 28 November 2011 (CET)

Ok i've passed the information from bfg into the article itself tag it as you will. i can't use the information on the sleeping god because i have no way to associate him with the dragon solely on that short story(i need another source that the thing on mars is the dragon), and i found this one the necron codex 3th edition page 63 i think.

It's a little bit to allegorical for any practical use --Ashendant 16:19, 1 December 2011 (CET)

In Mechanicum, its explicitly stated that the Void Dragon lived in Libya, next to Cyrene, during the reign of Emperor Diocletian, and that the Emperor(Big E, not Diocletian) who was a soldier of Diocletian fought and captured the Dragon. He also imprisoned it inside itself, and trapped in on Mars (although its not stated whether he took it at the same time he captured it or whether he waited until the advent of spaceflight). Sounds kind of odd, but that's what it says. Commisar Gegnillum 18:07, 1 December 2011 (CET)

I sincerely doubt that it is "explicitly stated". Things like that got us into trouble in the first place. --Inquisitor S., Großmeister des Ordo Lexicanum 18:14, 1 December 2011 (CET)

I can provide pages and a direct quote if you want (in a bit). It occurs when the Guardian of the Dragon was talking with Dalia, and showing her the memory of the VD on how the Emperor fought it. Commisar Gegnillum 18:17, 1 December 2011 (CET)

Well i have the direct quote from warseer, the problem is with inquisitor confirming the sources info.--Ashendant 18:22, 1 December 2011 (CET)

I am saying, that whatever this Guardian tells her is not necessarily the truth. That's like Horus' vision of Legion II (or XI, always mix them up). It's information that has to be included, but it has to be made clear, that it should not be taken verbatim. --Inquisitor S., Großmeister des Ordo Lexicanum 21:50, 1 December 2011 (CET)

So can i work with the citation given by warseer?--Ashendant 22:14, 1 December 2011 (CET)

I will provide you with the quote, I'll check it. --Inquisitor S., Großmeister des Ordo Lexicanum 22:32, 1 December 2011 (CET)

Dragon of Mars/Void Dragon

Surely the problem with the info from the Mechanicum novel is that the "Dragon of Mars" is never actually stated as being a C'tan - let alone the Void Dragon specifically. Whilst it is quite obvious that this is what the Dragon of Mars is implied to be - it is soley implication, so I think any info put on here from Mechanicum should be regarded as speculation unless corroberated from another source. Alternately a seperate "Dragon of Mars" page with notes on the 2 seperate pages that it is considered likely they are the same creature. Thelemur 01:43, 2 December 2011 (CET)

He's a star devourer... it's a C'tan, Void Dragon his also is eldar name, the official name we have of him is just Dragon--Ashendant 01:54, 2 December 2011 (CET)

Yes, that is the implication given in the novel - but where is it stated that the creature in Mechanicum is, specifically, The Void Dragon? Don't get me wrong - I'd agree that it almost certainly is but there has to, at the very least, be a note on the page that the two are BELIEVED to me the same entity unless there can be a source provided that actuallt states definitively that they are. Also the new sections on the page ("Dragon Memory" etc) are rather unclear, for example - "According to Adept Semyon, one of the versions of the Dragon memories shows him fighting the Emperor near the city of Cyrene in Lybia of the 11th or 12th century", what is meant by Dragon memories - it is not explained. (I have an idea of what it is reffering to as I've read the novel - but anyone who hasnt would probably be lost)Thelemur 02:08, 2 December 2011 (CET)

I don't know exactly, according to the quote on my talk page given by inquisitor he's called the Dragon, on the Necron Codex(3th) he's also called the Dragon, the only place i know he's called the Void Dragon is in eldar mythology article... in fact i think we should rename this page to just Dragon, until we know his necron name.

The book i think but i have no idea how to put it without saying that were the dragon memories.--Ashendant 02:18, 2 December 2011 (CET)

Cool - I'll re-read parts of Mechanicum over the next couple of days and maybe tidy those parts up a little, add page numbers etc Thelemur 02:27, 2 December 2011 (CET)

1. Mechanicum, Part 2, Chapter 2: The Dragon of Mars once lived in space, between the stars. (Unclear whether this info comes from the Akasha, the Warp, the Dragon's memories or Semyon.)
2. Mechanicum, Part 3, Chapter 2: The Guardian Semyon asks Dalia whether those others like the Dragon of Mars have already devoured all the stars. (Star-eating possibly derived from the Dragon's memories.)
3. Mechanicum, Part 3, Chapter 3: Dalia recognizes the Dragon of Mars as an incredibly old, powerful and exotic life-form. He consists of matter and warped space alike.
4. Mechanicum, Part 3, Chapter 3: In the memories of the Dragon of Mars: He waged war against his own kind, which left him in a weakened state, so he hid on Terra. (Possibly fought Nightbringer so he wouldn't eat him?)
5. Mechanicum, Part 3, Chapter 3: In the memories of the Dragon of Mars: His breast shone with the light of the stars he had devoured.
6. Mechanicum, Part 3, Chapter 3: In the memories of the Dragon of Mars: During his fight with the Emperor, his scales are described as being silver in colour, harder than steel and yet rippling with tiny waves when struck hard enough, as though being a liquid. (Sounds like Necrodermis to me.)
7. Mechanicum, Part 3, Chapter 3: The lost children of the Dragon Mars seek his vault and want to set him free. (Very weak hint at Necrons, BUT they did try to get to the Noctis Labyrinthus.)
8. DOW Dark Crusade: unique Necron building "Icon of the Dragon" that manipulates vehicles

And that's everything that comes to my mind right now. --DetlefK 11:07, 2 December 2011 (CET)

Indeed, there is no explicit statement saying that the Dargon of Mars is the Dragon of the C'tan. And so we will make two (or three if the Void Dragon can also not be linked to the C'tan Dragon) articles. We will say, that possibly they are the same but that there is no direct statement and therefore no proof. Agreed? Remember: we record, we do not interprete. --Inquisitor S., Großmeister des Ordo Lexicanum 11:51, 2 December 2011 (CET)

They are both called the dragon... the "of Mars" is just a extra the Mechanicus gives, like the "void" is an extra the eldar give, besides that the necron codex has allegory that he eats the mechanicum... i won't touch this article anymore... too many headaches.--Ashendant 19:47, 2 December 2011 (CET)

No bother, I'll work on it a bit tonight. I'm going to create a seperate Dragon of Mars page for the info from Mechanicum at the moment, though I have no problem with them being re-merged at a later date as long as there are some sources provided (other than the Mechanicum novel) stating that the Void Dragon is trapped on Mars. It will just make the articles easier to work on whilst we sift through all the available sources etc. Thelemur 20:22, 2 December 2011 (CET)

Correction, they don't need to say void dragon... they just need the to say something like "The C'tan called the Dragon that is sealed on mars" is enough to fuse both articles--Ashendant 21:34, 2 December 2011 (CET)

Yes, I agree 100%. Thelemur 21:58, 2 December 2011 (CET)

Sources

Someone plz correct the sources properly i'm right now too tired, and also any mistakes.--Ashendant 01:10, 2 December 2011 (CET)