Talk:Chapter
Standard Chapter Template
I am kind of surprised that common topic pages such as a main article for a Space Marine Chapter page do not have a standard template. Every page I look at has a different set of titles, sections and subsections. I believe we need the authority of the Inquisition to lay down the law.
- Suggested format:
- Chapter
- - Brief description
- Basic Information
- - Picture and armor color scheme, etc.
- Background (main section heading)
- - Home world
- - History
- - Notable Battles/recent activities
- - Organisation
- Chapter composition
- - Relics
- - Chapter members (current and diseased)
- - Fleet composition/ship names
- Sources
This is just a boilerplate. I imagine there should be other standard sub-sections that I haven’t named.
- Look at Imperial Fists, Thousand Sons and Night Lords. That's the template to follow. Thanks.--Mob 20:44, 21 March 2011 (CET)
- Although it just occurred to me you wouldn't be posting that here if you didn't mean to do the BR...so you'll want to look at pages like Lamenters and Sons of Medusa for the Chapter article template. Successor chapters are to be written up slightly differently to those of the First Founding. Thanks.--Mob 02:34, 22 March 2011 (CET)
- There is some noticeable deviation between the templates for Imperial Fists, Thousand Sons and Night Lords. The Basic Information sections are different sizes. The subheadings may be listed as Recent or Known engagements. If I may suggest to change those to Recorded engagements for congruancy. There is a heading called Relics on some pages and Artifacts on another. Relics is more appropriate a definition, as Artifact is something made by Man and we may be listing objects not made by man. Lastly the Characters heading may be changed to Chapter Members or simply Members in keeping that this article represents a historical record. My2Cents --Huraganus 09:55, 24 March 2011 (EDT)
- Sure. There are different basic info templates for loyalists, chaos and later foundings (due to the different info required), which result in different sizes, as can the size of the image inserted. You can change the image size no probs, but anything else requires altering the template; post on the talk pages for those with any suggestions you have. Relics is for loyalists, Artifacts for Chaos - this is terminology from the fluff. Chapter Members is not useful as characters in the first founders are often from when the Chapter was a Legion. However, Notable Members of Insert Name Here is something I personally would not object to if you don't like Characters. Thanks!--Mob 00:36, 24 March 2011 (CET)
- Terrific, a pattern is forming :) --Huraganus 09:45, 25 March 2011 (EDT)
- Oh, I skipped one. Recorded Engagements is fine-ish...but the reason we went for Recent and Known is because we either tend to have lots of detail (Loyalists) or not much (Chaos). So it was decided to use Recent for loyalists and Known for Chaos. The reasoning for this is that if we listed every date given for loyalist legions it would be mega-long, and so sticking to M41 for detail was decided upon. But I'm up for trying out Recorded if you want, we'll just see how unwieldy the section gets? For Chapters we just went for Founding, Recent Years and Organisation as headings rather than go into the detail the First Founders deserve (and have!). Cheers.--Mob 01:24, 25 March 2011 (CET)
- Great to see there is logical thinking behind this. Would it not be prudent to form a linked yet separate page for Recorded Engagements’’? This way the main article could remain relatively "edit free" once it has been documented properly, while the Imperium and Heretic/Xenos fight out for notations on the other page.
- Regarding Successor Chapter: I imagine the faithful would eventually want to see a (Recorded Engagements, Geneseed, Culture, Recruitment and Noted Elements of) sections. --Huraganus 13:55, 25 March 2011 (EDT)
- Ok, so we should do a 'see main' link for Recorded Engagements if needed and have a separate page. I'm up for that. Noted elements of Successors is something we should do, the other bits can be kind of scant; we decided they could fit into Organisation. What I would recommend now is that you pick a Chapter you're interested in and have lots of sources about and rewrite it to fit this format, see if it works. If you redlink stuff it's kinda expected that you intend to create that article, but no-one's going to object too much considering there's like only about a half-dozen regular contributors here at any one time and you can't do everything! Or just go for a Legion, whatever, a bunch of them need serious work. Rewriting them is a bitch though (I'm still not finished with 1KSons and I've been at it for aaaaages) so go for something you're into. Or we could collaborate on Blood Ravens seeing as we're here? This article is a fricking mess. Cheers.--Mob 04:34, 25 March 2011 (CET)
- Just to be clear; the template for Founding Chapters will include a link to a separate page that will list their engagements. This will mean moving current records (and related reference entries) onto a new page. Furthermore, the page(s) will need a title format. Chapter_Name Engagement List or List of Engagements for Chapter_Name (or some other variant); this I leave in your capable hands.
- Once the framework is ironed out, I'd be happy to systematically beat all the square pegs into the round holes :) --Huraganus 16:35, 26 March 2011 (EDT)
- Cool. I noticed you want to list all members; I'd suggest making this a separate page just like the Engagements one to avoid huge lists, and keep the member list on the main page for fluffed out characters.--Mob 23:37, 26 March 2011 (CET)
- Just started collecting known information (members names). As per your suggestion, they will only make it onto the page if there is a bit of substance known about them. Need you to decide on the title format for the seperate page(s). Lastly, I wanted to change a notation entry for missing information. Instead of Unknown, N/A, or Missing; I suggest entering RNF = Record Not Found.
- Well, the Engagement subheading could be Notable Engagements (or Actions or something else you suggest). The main page then would be Known Engagements of (insert). Characters is similar, it's Known Members of (insert), or another suggestion.
- I lean away from using Recorded and towards using Known (and keeping Unknown) as things being stricken from Imperial Records is part of the background, and while we use in-context terminology we're not writing these things in-universe. N/A is also preferable because sometimes things really aren't applicable; the Chapter Master field on the Sons of Medusa infobox is one that came up recently, for example. They simply don't have that rank, so it's not correct to use Record Not Found. Finally, it's jusr simpler to say 'we don't know (yet)' than say something like 'it isn't recorded' when it is, it's just that we (the readers/players) haven't been 'given' the record; this comes up a lot when writing articles. Cheers.--Mob 04:22, 27 March 2011 (CEST)
- Great, this is good to know; I wasn’t sure how close to the WH40K dictum the Lexicanum was sticking to. I started boxing the Death Guard page into the template; will move onto creating separate pages once they are all in alignment. --Huraganus 14:05, 27 March 2011 (EDT
- Just started collecting known information (members names). As per your suggestion, they will only make it onto the page if there is a bit of substance known about them. Need you to decide on the title format for the seperate page(s). Lastly, I wanted to change a notation entry for missing information. Instead of Unknown, N/A, or Missing; I suggest entering RNF = Record Not Found.
- Cool. I noticed you want to list all members; I'd suggest making this a separate page just like the Engagements one to avoid huge lists, and keep the member list on the main page for fluffed out characters.--Mob 23:37, 26 March 2011 (CET)
- Ok, so we should do a 'see main' link for Recorded Engagements if needed and have a separate page. I'm up for that. Noted elements of Successors is something we should do, the other bits can be kind of scant; we decided they could fit into Organisation. What I would recommend now is that you pick a Chapter you're interested in and have lots of sources about and rewrite it to fit this format, see if it works. If you redlink stuff it's kinda expected that you intend to create that article, but no-one's going to object too much considering there's like only about a half-dozen regular contributors here at any one time and you can't do everything! Or just go for a Legion, whatever, a bunch of them need serious work. Rewriting them is a bitch though (I'm still not finished with 1KSons and I've been at it for aaaaages) so go for something you're into. Or we could collaborate on Blood Ravens seeing as we're here? This article is a fricking mess. Cheers.--Mob 04:34, 25 March 2011 (CET)
- Oh, I skipped one. Recorded Engagements is fine-ish...but the reason we went for Recent and Known is because we either tend to have lots of detail (Loyalists) or not much (Chaos). So it was decided to use Recent for loyalists and Known for Chaos. The reasoning for this is that if we listed every date given for loyalist legions it would be mega-long, and so sticking to M41 for detail was decided upon. But I'm up for trying out Recorded if you want, we'll just see how unwieldy the section gets? For Chapters we just went for Founding, Recent Years and Organisation as headings rather than go into the detail the First Founders deserve (and have!). Cheers.--Mob 01:24, 25 March 2011 (CET)
- Terrific, a pattern is forming :) --Huraganus 09:45, 25 March 2011 (EDT)
- Sure. There are different basic info templates for loyalists, chaos and later foundings (due to the different info required), which result in different sizes, as can the size of the image inserted. You can change the image size no probs, but anything else requires altering the template; post on the talk pages for those with any suggestions you have. Relics is for loyalists, Artifacts for Chaos - this is terminology from the fluff. Chapter Members is not useful as characters in the first founders are often from when the Chapter was a Legion. However, Notable Members of Insert Name Here is something I personally would not object to if you don't like Characters. Thanks!--Mob 00:36, 24 March 2011 (CET)
- There is some noticeable deviation between the templates for Imperial Fists, Thousand Sons and Night Lords. The Basic Information sections are different sizes. The subheadings may be listed as Recent or Known engagements. If I may suggest to change those to Recorded engagements for congruancy. There is a heading called Relics on some pages and Artifacts on another. Relics is more appropriate a definition, as Artifact is something made by Man and we may be listing objects not made by man. Lastly the Characters heading may be changed to Chapter Members or simply Members in keeping that this article represents a historical record. My2Cents --Huraganus 09:55, 24 March 2011 (EDT)
- Wow, I'm glad to see my IF template has been so useful. I really like the work you've done to it / with it, Mob -- outstanding job. I've got a list of edits/articles I've been meaning to do for a while, but after that I'd really like to collaborate and fine tune templates for 1st founding, successor chapters, chaos legions :) --augustmanifesto 19:40, 28 March 2011 (CEST)
- Ha, I wasn't kidding when I said I thought your re-write of Imperial Fists was one of the best things I've seen done here. Your input on the template discussion would be appreciated, anytime. --Mob 21:37, 28 March 2011 (CEST)
First Founding Chapter Name
Basic Information
Homeworld
History
Great Crusade
Formation
Combat disposition and record
The Horus Heresy
Horus Heresy Aftermath
Notable Engagements
-see main|Known Engagements of Chapter Name-
Geneseed
Culture
Recruitment
Noted Elements
Relics/Artifacts
Vessels
Notable Members
-see main|Known Members of Chapter Name-
Additional Information
Related Articles
Trivia
Example of force
etc.
Sources
and
Successor Chapter Name
Basic Information
History
Founding
Recent Years
Organisation
Noted Elements
Relics/Artifacts
Vessels
Notable Members of Chapter Name
-see main|Known Members of Chapter Name
Additional Information
Sources
Heresy era Chapters
Throughout the site, I am seeing "Chapter" used by the Space Marine Legions, and the rank of Chapter Master existing while they Legions are still united. Is Chapter used in another sense in the Horus Heresy? And if so, can we get some information on that in this article? -- SFH 00:38, 4 October 2011 (CEST)
- Both existed during the Heresy (though not used by all legions). A Chapter as a subdivision of a Legion became the norm unit for Space Marine organisation after the Heresy.--Mob 13:13, 5 October 2011 (CEST)
Updating the Pages
I'm quite happy to update the pages (or as many of them as I can face) to follow these layouts, but I dont think there is any point in putting all the headings and sub-headings on pages of Chapters that are only mentioned in passing (Eg Absolvers http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=Talk:Chapter&action=submit#.TwiwAfKcedk) as they will always remain blank (unless GW happen to mention that Chapter again). Any opinions? Thelemur 21:59, 7 January 2012 (CET)
- Yeah, don't bother unless the information is there to add IMHO. If it is and you don't have it to hand or can't be bothered doing it at that time, there's no harm in using an incomplete tag.--Mob 22:25, 7 January 2012 (CET)
- I agree, to put sections in the page that will never be filled is stupid. However, the incomplete tag will have to be used properly, where it is known that there is extra information but not present on the page. If possible, it would help if any extra known sources were added to the talk page etc. I dont think we should use the stub tag at all however, as that doesn't seem to have the same effect as the incomplete tag.--Ytokes 23:02, 7 January 2012 (CET)
1st Founding Chapters
I think these chapters should also have an "Organisation" section too - with Chapter organisation details. Most of the pages already have this section and they should obv be maintained in any new layout. Thelemur 22:17, 7 January 2012 (CET)
- This is a tricky one that got some discussion, unfortunately it was another guy who presented the convincing arguments for changing those, I didn't mind them. Basically, in the articles we were using as testbeds, there wasn't enough info to justify them that wasn't better explained elsewhere (Such sections'd basically say 'they are a codex chapter' or 'unknown at this time'), and the changes between legion and chapter are always going to be described in the history section. Of course, where there is great info it should be kept/added; the Ultramarines article currently has that current order of battle, that's so cool it deserves its own section, though if I was doing the page from scratch I'd subsection it at the end of their modern history section or put it in Additional Information. They have to stay until the whole page gets updated anyway, so do what you think's best the now I guess? Thanks.--Mob 22:49, 7 January 2012 (CET)
- Im pretty sure Ive got info on organasation of all the Loyalist 1st Founding Chapters - obviously not all with as much detail as the Ultra page, I'll dig up what I can. :) Thelemur 22:58, 7 January 2012 (CET)
- I've Started changing the 1st founding (loyalist) pages to the mentioned format, but the pages will still need a bit of work with reformatting and filling in missing ino. I'll go back and fill in whatever blanks i can when I can be bothered. Thelemur 19:36, 9 January 2012 (CET)
