Welcome to Warhammer 40k - Lexicanum! Log in and join the community.

Talk:Lion El'Jonson

From Warhammer 40k - Lexicanum
Jump to: navigation, search

Clicking Emperor's Shield, redirects to a named titan page. It must be fixed. Deranzo (talk) 19:32, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

Fixed. KazilDarkeye (talk) 19:56, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

picture

I don't believe that the image is accurate. Dark Angels wore black armor Pre-Heresy!--Mean green bean 04:45, 20 April 2007 (CEST)

I know aye, ive seen pre-heresy dark angels with GREEN ARMOUR!! WTH??? --Tabris 04:00, 13 November 2008 (CET)

?...--Genestealer, Magus 05:01, 13 November 2008 (CET)

They did wear green armour after The Lion re-named them The Dark Angels.

Do you have evidence of this from somewhere, given that the Codex and novels all refer only to black armour? If not, the picture is no accurate and should be removed. --Hakster 15:23, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Dark Angels Codex; Second Edition states: "The Angels of Vengeance have retained the black armor of the original Dark Angels Legion." I'm also sure of this, the Dark Angels were painted black Pre-Heresy, comming from Luther's words at the Adeptus' arrival with jumppacks. "And the angels of darkness descended upon pinions of fire and light...the great and terrible dark angels." So this picture is most likely either not Jonson, or wrong. --Primach Mortation 22.32, 16 March 2010 (CEST)

As everyone who's bothered to update here agrees that the picture cannot be the Lion, I'm removing it from the page. Hakster 06:19, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Page 285 and 286 of the Horus Heresy paperback Tales of Heresy, the Dark Angel's short story Call of the Lion, written by Gav Thorpe:

  • "And that?" said Astelan, redirecting his accusing finger to Belath's other shoulder pad, which was painted a dark green beneath the Dark Angels symbol.

"The glorious Lion El'Jonson has decreed that Calibanite warriors are to wear the green of our home world's forests,' said Belath with no small hint of defiance. 'It is to act as a remembrance of the battles fought to tame Caliban under the leadership of the Lion.'*

Earlier, on page 276 is this quote:

  • Astelan was clad in his power armour, as were his three companions, Galedan, Astoric and Melian, each a captain of the companies carried aboard the battle-barge. Their armour was shadow-black, broken only be the red winged-sword insignia of the Legion upon their left shoulder pad and their company markings on the right.*

Astelan and his companions, on the page 276 quote, are Terran-borne Dark Angels, Legionnaires before the discovery of their Primarch. Belath is a new Calibanite Astartes, a new recruit from their newly discovered home world of Caliban. Using this as a source it can then be accurately believed that the black armour of the Dark Angels is a pre-Primarch armour. The green armour common to the Dark Angels is then not post-Heresy. The Legion that descended upon Caliban, according to the previous quote by Luther, are entirely devised by Terrans, obviously. Calibanite Dark Angels, however, would have green armor. Therefore, it can be assumed that the Lion would be far more likely to wear green armour than black, or any other.

Though I can't recall any scene where this is specifically claimed, I have found this quote, found in the Horus Heresy paperback Fallen Angels by Mike Lee, page 37, describing features of Lion's armour:

  • Ornate gold scrollwork had been worked into the curved, ceramite plates, detailing forest scenes from distant Caliban.*

As the green of the Dark Angels is in reference to the forests of Caliban, than the forest scenes being picked out in ornate gold scrollwork would be on a dark green background.

It should also be noted that in the Horus Heresy paperback Descent of Angels, by Mitchel Scanlon, the cover artwork is that of three Dark Angels with distinctively dark green armour.

I know not of any codex, as I've only read the novels. However what the novels do say is pretty conclusive: Before the Lion is found, the Dark Angels wore black armour. Upon his discovery, before and during the Heresy, the primary color of the Dark Angels was a dark green, and the black armour became a divider between Dark Angels hailing from Terra and Dark Angels hailing from the Lion's home world, Caliban. Conn 23:14 20 November 2010 (-8 GMT)

Descent of Angels (too lazy to seek out the exact pages):
Before Caliban all members of the Dark Angels were recruited from Terra. They wore black power armour.
On Caliban, Lion El'Jonson and Luther were the leaders of a knight order, who used black power armour (a very primitive type). And when they met the Dark Angels, almost immediately Lion El'Jonson was declared their commander and his order was dissolved and its members absorbed into the Legion.
The novel ends with Luthers return to Caliban and as far as I can remember, green power armour goes completely unmentioned. --DetlefK 15:23, 21 November 2010 (UTC)
They aren't in green armour at any point in the novels - yet. Belath's green shoulder pad is exactly that; a shoulder pad. If his whole armour was green it would say in the text...not to mention that Astelan would remark 'What's up with your armour?' rather than 'What's up with your shoulder?'. None of the marines (including Calibanites) with the Lion in Fallen Angels are mentioned to be wearing green armour. The idea about Luther's armour is a good one but until it says "green armour" anywhere, it's just conjecture and extrapolation. Cover art is next to useless as there's no telling when the pic is representative of; also remember that the cover of False Gods shows Luna Wolves rather than Sons of Horus and that the scene depicted on the cover of Battle for the Abyss doesn't actually happen in the book. Thanks--Mob 16:50, 21 November 2010 (UTC)
My apologies, I wrote Luther where I meant Lion. I can not think of any specific mention of "The Lion wears green armour," but my point isn't that he did wear green armour, but that to remove a possible picture of him because it's in green armour is faulty logic, as the evidence that we do have makes it just as likely as black armour, the only other real possibility. Especially since the evidence continues to lean more toward green armour the closer we get to the destruction of Caliban and the Lion's naptime.

Conn

As you say, "possible" picture. That's pretty much all the reason we need not to have it in an wiki that tries to be as factual as it can be. Seeing as we just don't know that he ever actually wore green armour, it'd be misrepresentative.
A compromise suggestion; place it in the article but at the bottom, in the spot we usually reserve for canon conflicts/differing accounts/contradictory info. Explain that the picture may be an image of the Lion and present the info for and against in a short, concise manner. Use wording that will minimise argument (but not stamp out discussion). Sound okay? Thanks.--Mob 17:08, 22 November 2010 (UTC)


That's exactly what I was hoping for. I realize that it may not be the Lion, but I also feel that removing it detracts from the article, and doesn't make it more accurate. As we have no proof that it is indeed the Lion, we definitely shouldn't outright state it is. But the fact that we also have no proof it isn't the Lion, and plenty of proof that turn it into a 'maybe' situation (such as the Lion Helm, who according to the Lexicanum's page on it, was once worn by the Lion himself, according to legend, and is now possessed by Azrael, whose Helmet-bearer's miniature sports a green helm tucked under arm, the same green as current Dark Angel armor), should mean that it's something worth bringing up to the average Lexicanum user, who likely doesn't look at the Discussion tabs. I understand the necessity in keeping the articles as accurate as possible, and I don't want to hamper that. But I also feel that we shouldn't cover up information simply because we can't prove it as true or not. Is it more accurate to say we have no picture of the Lion, as its absence on this page would suggest, or to say we have a picture that may represent the Lion, but here are the reasons why it may or may not be the Lion? Regardless, thanks for actually listening to my argument and providing an unbiased solution. Conn

Was it expected of me to make the change? Because I have no idea how to do that, and I'm thinking I don't want to mess around with it. It was after reading the discussion, and remembering some bits of the Horus Heresy books, that led me to creating an account in the first place to add my two cents to the discussion. Conn

Hi, yeah, sorry, I assumed you would do so as the person moving for its inclusion. I don't have the picture to add. If you do, adding it is easy-
  • upload pic with source and category
  • go to another page with a similar picture on it, click the edit tab and have a look at what the picture code looks like. copy it to the desired place in the Lion article and change the filename to the one you gave the pic of the Lion in the first place.
  • preview to see if it works; adjust the size or side of the page it displays on to suit the look of the article
  • write the explanation; again, look at the page in the edit tab to see how things work and preview it before saving. Easy!--Mob 16:55, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
I saw the picture only briefly, and never saved it. I wasn't sure how these types of sites works in this regard. I sort of thought that, while it was removed from the viewable page, that the file still existed in some form within the database. I suppose I should have brought this up first and saved us all the trouble of this debate. If anyone else has the picture and would care to upload, I'd be glad to do the rest of the work. And thanks for the tips, Mob. In the future, should I ever add or edit, that will be useful to know. -- Conn 11:23, 23 February 2011 (-8 GMT)

current location

Is Lion sleeping in The Rock just a rumor? I have never heard any official sources saying he is.

It's in Codex:Angels of Death. --Inquisitor S. 09:16, 20 April 2007 (CEST)

What is the reference for the Lion and the Wolf? I would love to read that material!--Vindicta 09:44, 10 January 2009 (CET)

Codex: Angels of Death (2nd Edition), page 67. I've added the source in the material.--Jonru 13:17, 10 January 2009 (CET)
I got to get myself this book.--Vindicta 13:28, 10 January 2009 (CET)

Mmm, I notice that the top description of the planet references the eye of terror.. surely there was no eye of terror at the point when Lion was sent to the planet..?!?

The Eye of Terror was created due to the Fall of the Eldar and is far older than the Imperium.--Genestealer, Magus 22:08, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

Disorganization

The section concerning the Thramas Crusade is severely disorganized. During the Thramas Crusade, the Lion would talk to Curze at Tsagualsa. It is here that Curze would give the Lion the possible visions of Luther, as described in Savage Weapons (Short Story) by Aaron Dembski-Bowden. Lion el'Jonson would leave this confrontation after having his throat slit in battle. Then in The Lion by Gav Thorpe, the Lion would obtain a warp engine of unforeseen power. Using this engine, the Lion would initiate the ambush described in the article, events described in Prince of Crows by Aaron Dembski-Bowden in a first ambush, which would see Curze heavily injured and in a catatonic state. The Lion would then initate a second strike at the regrouping Night Lords. During the battle, Curze would board the Invincible Reason, where he still is currently in the Heresy timeline. Arkhar 13:31, 25 August 2013 (EST)