Talk:Battle of the Fang

Original reference?

From what I've seen, most or all of the Space Marine Battles novels are explorations of battles that are introduced in other canon sources, such as Codices and Rulebooks. For instance, Wrath of Iron (Novel) focuses on the Purging of Contqual, detailed in Codex: Space Marines (5th Edition). Where is the Battle of the Fang mentioned, other than in the novel?--Proteus77 01:22, 10 March 2012 (CET)

I checked a couple of old sources i thought mentioned it, and you will wish you hadn't asked -

• The 1st SW codex describes Magnus and the 1000 Sons attacking the fang in m32, though the Great Wolf mentioned here is called Harek Ironhelm.
• Codex Sisters of battle has a section called "Battle of the Fang" - but here the attackers arent Thousand Sons, bur rebel forces during the Plague of Unbelief, so this is evidently a different battle with the same name.

I then got too scared to check more texts incase i found a 4th "Battle of the Fang". The Lemur 02:49, 10 March 2012 (CET)

Ooh - just skimmed the main article and noticed Harek Ironhelm mentioned there - so I guess it is the same conflict in the novel and Codex Space Wolves. The passage is only about half a page, I could scan it and post it on your talk page if you want to check it out. The Lemur 02:52, 10 March 2012 (CET)

Yeah, there are 2 'battles of the Fang', the Second Battle of the Fang is an Age of Apostasy conflict, the first the M32 invasion. There's at least one short story set during the AoA one (kinda) - Twelve Wolves by Ben Counter - as well as the SoB codex. I've normally seen the first battle referred to as The battle and the Apostasy one (when it's remembered at all) as the Second. Aside from the SW codex, there is at least one piece of flavour text on the M32 invasion, but it had no particular detail IIRC and I have no idea where I read it, it was so long ago. An old WD, probably.--Mob 14:41, 10 March 2012 (CET)

Could you scan that page and send it to me?--Proteus77 23:19, 24 May 2012 (CEST)

deleted image Ta-da!The Lemur 23:40, 24 May 2012 (CEST)

Battle infobox

So I stuck this in just to see what it looked like in the page and to get some feedback, revert away after checking it out. What I was curious about was if anyone thinks these things are a good idea, or are even viable here, ways to improve if so etc.--Mob 14:57, 10 March 2012 (CET)

Wikipedia style. I like it. But I'd like to have a graphical element. For example the respective unit symbols or such (like in Wikipedia). Plus maybe a field for losses? --Inquisitor S., Großmeister des Ordo Lexicanum 15:39, 10 March 2012 (CET)

Updated with images. One of the reasons I asked if this was thought viable is the often vagueness of info we have for this sort of thing; the Battle for the Fang is quite informative with troop strength and losses, but you can see it's still quite vague, esp in the losses section.--Mob 20:09, 10 March 2012 (CET)

I too like it. Even if you don't know exact details i.e. how many people fought on each side, most battles have distinct units like regiments/warbands/hunter cadres/etc. you can list. BeeWolf 21:22, 10 March 2012 (CET)

Battle result

Surely the battle resulted in a partial victory for the Thousand Sons too? Given one of the primary objectives of the assault was to remove the possibility of creation of successor chapters to the Space Wolves, Magnus acheived his goal. I propose altering the result in the infobox to that of a pyrrhic victory for the Thousand Sons. Yes, they lost a helluva lot of men, marines and robots, but Magnus' goal was completed and the Sons of Russ are still limited to one chapter. Dagsannr^{For the grea... Allfather!} 14:52, 12 September 2012 (CEST)

That made me wonder, when I read it: The Space Wolves gene-seed is still working. What keeps the Space Wolves from setting some of it aside and founding a new Chaper with it? Why does the gene-seed have to be modified to found a successor-chapter? --DetlefK 21:13, 12 September 2012 (CEST)

I think it says this in the article, but the Space Wolves' first and only attempt to create a Successor Chapter - the Wolf Brothers - was a disaster; the entire chapter turned Wulfen and went renegade. The Space Wolves' geneseed "works" insofar as they continue to keep the balance between the wolf and civilization, but it is always a delicate balance. Wyrmblade was doing his best to "temper" the savage aspects of the Wolves' gene-seed, though it is questionable whether it would have succeeded, had Magnus not destroyed it.--Proteus77 21:41, 12 September 2012 (CEST)

Plus, and anyone is free to correct me, but unless the apothecaries of a chapter can work some techno-magic, marines only create two gene-seeds in their lifetime, essentially meaning for every one marine, only two more can be created. Given that not all marines can have their seed harvested (MIA, blasted apart, etc) it's probably difficult for marines to keep up a 1:1 recruitment/loss ratio. I imagine the space wolves havn't founded any successors not only because of the flaw in the gene-seed, but because their natural fighting instinct doesn't lend itself to the recovery of as many seeds as they'd like. A chapter's gene-seed bank is a valuable resource and something to be maintained for when it's needed (like having your planet attacked by a crazy daemon Primarch and his millions of followers), not spread thin in the creation of new chapters. Dagsannr^{For the grea... Allfather!} 22:13, 12 September 2012 (CEST)

The progenoids need 10 years to produce two gene-seed-samples. Let's double this to 50 years, for extra quality. This means a doubling of gene-seed every 50 years. Starting with 1 gene-seed, they would have 1024 gene-seed-samples after 10 generations (=500 years). But as they have to replace losses, I guess, they only end up with 10% surplus over this time-span, or no surplus at all.

Another scenario: Let's say, the Space Wolves set aside 10 Bloodclaws in each generation, their gene-seed to be harvested as soon as possible. First implants at age 10, last at age 20, progenoids matured 10 years later. That produces 20 gene-seed-samples every 20 years. 10 of those are to be harvested immediately and stored extra as a surplus.
With this simple measure, the Space Wolves would gain a surplus of 1000 gene-seed-samples over the course of 2000 years. Expand it to 50 Bloodclaws and add a 50% failure-rate. That's a surplus of 25 every 20 years. It would take 800 years to reach a surplus of 1000.

Recap: With little effort, the Space Wolves could try to found a successor chapter every millenium. --DetlefK 11:16, 13 September 2012 (CEST)

You're making the assumption that harvested progenoids don't decay over time once harvested, or that all of them are viable and that all those implated 'take'. I think you're being overly optimistic with the numbers and also underestimating the losses incurred. I think the main issue is that the Space Wolf gene-seed is unstable and seems to require Fenris natives to work (there's rumours that the line 'There are no wolves on Fenris' refers to the fact that all the wolves on Fenris are descended from failed aspirants and early colonist genetic engineering). Even if you can store thousands of gene-seeds, there aren't enough Fenrisians to keep up the recruitment for more chapters. Dagsannr^{For the grea... Allfather!} 11:50, 13 September 2012 (CEST)

Non-viable progenoids are included in my 50% failure-quota. And for decaying biological samples: 1. It's cold on Fenris. 2. Liquid-nitrogen-cryostats are cheap. 3. there is stasis-technology in WH40k.

The line "There are no wolves on Fenris." comes from the fact, that there are no wolves on Fenris. The wolf-like creatures on Fenris are actually descendants of xeno-animals which were genetically manipulated by the first human settlers of Fenris to look like wolves. (A Thousand Sons)

But if the Space Wolf gene-seed really requires Fenrisians to work, then it's hard wiggle out of this dead-end. Maybe a settlement program could increase the population-number, but the Space Wolves wouldn't condone changes, for they are very traditional. --DetlefK 12:40, 13 September 2012 (CEST)